"The Mosquito Coast" Talk About The Weather(2022) ##TOP##

Guy Kawasaki:I'm Guy Kawasaki, and this is Remarkable People. This episode's remarkable guest is, Paul Theroux. Whose name I mispronounced throughout the entire interview. He's one of the best-known travel writers in the world. The Great Railway Bazaar, a book about his epic railway trip from the UK to Japan and back, is considered a classic in travel writing. You've probably also heard of The Mosquito Coast. This book won the James Tait Black Memorial Prize in 1981, and it was made into a movie in 1986. In 2015, The Royal Geographical Society awarded him the Royal Medal for, "The encouragement of geographical discovery through travel writing." Other recipients of this medal include Sir. Edmund Hillary, Admiral Richard Byrd, and Dr. Thor Heyerdahl.In this episode, you'll learn why getting your book banned isn't necessarily a bad thing. How travel teaches you that you're small and the world is big. The power of walking and biking to encourage the writing muse. And how to survive a year of travel along the Mexican-US border.Paul currently lives in Massachusetts and Hawaii. This interview was conducted while he was on the North Shore of Hawaii, where people may know him more as a paddler and a farmer than a writer. We went a little overboard with our discussion of Hawaii, but Hawaii is a remarkable place. The podcast starts with a discussion of a Hawaiian term, bulai, it's the pidgin word for lying. I think it's a slightly cleaned up version of bullshit.This episode of Remarkable People is brought to you by reMarkable, the paper tablet company. Yes, you've got that right, Remarkable is sponsored by reMarkable. I have Version 2 in my hot little hands and it's so good. A very impressive upgrade.Here's how I use it. One, taking notes while I'm interviewing a podcast guest. Two, taking notes while being brief about speaking gigs. Three, drafting the structure of keynote speeches. Four, storing manuals for the gizmos that I buy. Five, roughing out drawings for things like surf boards, surf board sheds, and office layouts. Six, wrapping my head around complex ideas with diagrams and flow charts. This is a remarkably well thought out product. It doesn't try to be all things to all people, but it takes notes better than anything I've used. Check out the recent reviews of the latest version.I'm Guy Kawasaki, and this is Remarkable People. And now, here's the remarkable Paul Theroux.I have not read or heard the term bulai for about 40 years. So when I read your book, I just loved it and I'd never seen it spelled out, so I had to look that up. I love that term. Yeah. [crosstalk 00:03:09].Paul Theroux:It's hard actually to find a definitive spelling, because sometimes we say, boolier, boolai, bulai. But, yeah. Well, anyway, that's good. So you'll recognize a lot of this particular book that other people won't.Guy Kawasaki:Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I do have a question though. Why do you spell how's it, H-O-W'S I-T as opposed to H-O-W-Z-I-T?Paul Theroux:I think that was probably the proofreader, corrected it. Yeah.Guy Kawasaki:Okay. Because you certainly have pidgin down path in that book.Paul Theroux:Well, thanks. I've lived here more than 30 years, and I hear it all the time. Most people I know, speak pidgin. Surfers. I paddle, I have a outrigger canoe. So I go paddling twice a week with guys. They don't know I'm a writer. Once I was paddling and... I'm an old guy in an outrigger, and they said, "Howzit? You want to run with us?" I said, "Okay." So, now we paddle, they speak pidgin all the time. So, I'm always hearing it.Guy Kawasaki:I have never completely lost it. And at one point in my life, I decided that people don't try to rid themselves of their British accent or their Southern accent or their... Why should I have to try to lose my pidgin accent? Although, I don't think it makes you necessarily sound too intelligent. But I never completely lost it.Paul Theroux:I've had these discussions with these guys, these paddlers. They're Hawaiian, and one of them speaks Hawaiian. And we talk about that a lot, not only pidgin, but Hawaiian. And I said, "If you lose your language, you lose a whole vocabulary of culture, which is essential to who you are." The first thing that colonialists do, is take language away from people. And when the missionaries came to Hawaii, they didn't allow Hawaiians to speak pidgin, but also Hawaiian in the schools.When you lose your language, you actually lose your culture. If you want to find a way into a culture... I went to Africa, when I was 22 and I was a teacher. I was a [inaudible 00:05:41] teacher in the middle of Africa. The first thing I did was learn the language, it was called Chichewa. So it's spoken in Mozambique, Malawi, bit of Zambia. So when I learned it, I certainly not only had a lot of friends, but I had access to culture. So, you have a greater understanding of Hawaii, even though you haven't lived here, I guess, much in your adult life. That's who you are, and that's your access to the culture. So it's a great thing, I think.Guy Kawasaki:When I take my family to Hawaii, and of course our first step is Zippy's. When I drop into pidgin, my family can barely understand what I'm saying. So, it's quite hilarious.Paul Theroux:Yeah. Well, there you go.Guy Kawasaki:So, you said you have an outrigger. But, are you a surfer? Because your book shows great understanding of surfing and the breaks in Hawaii, and all the good stuff. How did you come to master all of that?Paul Theroux:Just by living here, I didn't study it. We lived in Manoa, [Sheila 00:06:53], whom you know, was married before and had a house in Manoa. So, when we first got together, we lived in that house. I really didn't like it. You know Honolulu, Kalihi Valley, for example, houses are very close together there. And what I craved was elbow room. Now, I live here on seven acres, not many people have this amount of elbow room. But when I bought it 22, 23 years ago. No, no, 28 years ago. I bought it in 1992, 28 years ago. So I thought, I've got to get out of listening to other people's radio. You know, you hear the radio next door, or someone saying, "Pass the [inaudible 00:07:44]." And you could smell the teriyaki sauce, the [inaudible 00:07:47].Just the idea of being in such close proximity to other people. People live very close together in Hawaii, and I needed to get away from it. So, that's the long answer. When I moved out of Honolulu, I moved into a place with its own culture, its own rules, actually. And basically its surfers' paradise. There's a lot of traditional Hawaiian sites here, ceremonial sites and so forth. And I don't know anyone who wrote...When I'm on the beach, I'm sometimes sitting in a chair, writing. People come up and say, local guys, so they say, "What are you writing? What are you doing?" Because it's such a crazy thing, reading or writing doesn't figure in the lives of people on the North Shore. So, what does, is surfing, and the geography of the North Shore is defined by breaks. It happened at Chuns Reef, [Aulanis 00:08:55], [inaudible 00:08:55], Himalayas, Avalanche, that's how people define where you are. I saw an accident at Chuns [inaudible 00:09:00]. That's just the way life goes on, here. So, it's not hard, if you're reasonably attentive you can kind of figure it out.Guy Kawasaki:It's one thing to know where the breaks are and their names. But this book, it goes into the emotions of surfing. How did you get that without being a surfer, is what I'm asking.Paul Theroux:I suppose that's part of the imaginative aspect of fiction, which is the kind of ventriloquism of becoming another person or... I mean, I've interrogated people about it, but also I've been a paddler. In the 1980s, mid eighties, I took up paddling, paddling a kayak. It was on the east coast. And I wrote a book about it, called, The Happy Isles of Oceania. Where I paddled on 53 islands in the Pacific, Tonga, Samoa, New Guinea, Australia. I went to Easter Island, Tahiti, the Marquesas, name it. And I was always paddling. Often, unwillingly but of necessity, surfing a kayak. So, I can surf a kayak. I'm not great at it, but I can do it. And when you see people surfing, it's something you need to watch. You can't actually get it out of a book. You get it from other people, and from the experience of it.So as a paddler, as a resident, I think, probably that accounts for it. But, it does help to have some sense of the water. And here's what I think about Hawaii in general. Hawaii is not inhabited islands, it's not just volcanic islands, it's the surf, it's the water, it's everything around Hawaii. A lot of people come here and they think, especially I suppose tourists, but other people too, they think you're on land. You're not on land. It's like being on a boat, and the water matters to you, and the farther you go out in the water, you realize there's a whole life in the water. Fishermen, swimmers, surfers, and you get out and you actually... The best view of Hawaii is from the water when you're off shore, then you see it.So the water is also part of the Hawaiian experience. I always felt that to be the case, but also I conscientiously studied it, to try to understand the relationship between the water and the land. And, that's the defining aspect, I suppose, of the book. Although the book is really about a guy who has a problem. I mean, he hits a guy on a bike and doesn't know who it is, and the guy has to kind of figure it out. So, it's not about surfing, but I would say it's also about aging. It's about getting old and-Guy Kawasaki:Is [Sharky 00:12:23], your alter ego?Paul Theroux:In one sense, yeah, he's kind of an alter ego. Maybe evil twin, because he doesn't read. There are a lot of people who just think a book is just a problem. And they're like, "Don't give me a book, I'll have to read it." So in a sense, an alter ego, I suppose. But a lot of what I feel about aging or losing your mojo. When these Hawaiian guys said, "You can run with us." I thought, great, because if I have a problem, they'll help me. And in fact, now and then you do have a hoolie, and you go over, and you've got to get back in the boat. And these guys are good. They're strong, they're workmen, they work at Schofield, they're cleaners and handymen.So, I mean, I don't want to go paddling with a bunch of writers. It'd be horrible. There'd be a bunch of selfish, unbalanced people. But the idea of real paddlers. So, in that sense, yeah, Sharky feels he's losing it. You're a young guy, so you don't know this. But, there's a tipping point, I suppose, where you think... I have a kayak that's very heavy, it's hard to put on the roof rack. It wasn't always that heavy. I used to sling it on the roof rack, but, maybe it's waterlogged. No, it's not. It's Just heavy. [inaudible 00:13:54]. But that's the kayak that I took. I mean, I paddled all around New Guinea and the Trobriand Islands with that. It's a kayak that you can assemble, it's a folding kayak, a German. The German military used it. So it's a great, great kayak. You can fix it, you can paddle it. But anyway, you notice it. I mean, maybe surfers at a certain point say, my board is getting heavy, I've got to get a lighter board, or something like that.Guy Kawasaki:I put a handle in my board because it's too hard to carry.Paul Theroux:But you know, the other thing about it is, there's a whole aspect of surfing that's changed. I know the surfers who are over 65, 70, especially the ones who are over 70. They still surf. Jock Sutherland, for example, who's a tremendous surfer. He's 74, I think, still surfs. But he makes his money fixing... He's a roofer. So, that's part of the book too, which is, the whole nature of surfing has changed. People used to be fun, Who is the best surfer? The one having the most fun, that's the great surfer. Now, it's, Who is the great surfer? It's the one with the most endorsements. There's a lot of competition out there, and a lot of fancy moves that people make. So the book is also about that transition, it's not young guys out shredding the waves anymore. It's guys wanting their picture on Surfer's Journal, and getting an endorsement. Because there's money in it. For a very, very small number of surfers, there's a lot of money. For the others, they're just on the waves.It's also dangerous. It's risky. Just yesterday, a guy, he's in the hospital now, [Shona Sig 00:15:48]. He was at Pipeline and he wiped out. Badly banged his head on the reef, and he was unconscious. Guys went out for him. But he was wearing a helmet, but his helmet was all smashed. So, the average person doesn't realize that, the non-surfer, that you're better off wearing a helmet on certain places. They think, "Oh, it's just a bunch of dudes just running." But actually, you do need protection at some places. That's kind of interesting, that you can, not only drown, but you can have your head cracked in.So, my friends and acquaintances up here, have generally been surfers. You get a plumber, and the plumber will say, "I'm coming tomorrow." And then he doesn't come, because he surfs up. He'll say, "Oh, I was surfing, but I'll definitely do it tomorrow." So, everyone's a part time surfer. I think the great guys are actually the people who do it for fun, part time. I love it when the plumber says, "I'll definitely come," and then he's surfing. I think, "Well, there's a guy living his life." I can wait another day, I don't care. I'll fix it like Jock on the roof.Guy Kawasaki:Do you hang out with John John Florence and Jamie O'Brien?Paul Theroux:Not with O'Brien. I know John John and his mother. Garrett McNamara is a very good friend of mine.Guy Kawasaki:Yeah? Doesn't he have a house in Mokuliea, or [Halu 00:17:26], or someplace [crosstalk 00:17:27]?Paul Theroux:Exactly. Mokuliea. But that's part of his income, it's like Airbnb. But I wrote a piece about him for Smithsonian, about riding the big wave at Nazare. I knew him before then, but then I saw him and I said, "Did you write about this?" And he said, "Well, yeah." So, someone wrote a book about it, but I said, "I want to write about it, but in a way to use it as a motivational piece." How to ride a monster. And in fact, I suggested we write a book together, how to ride a monster. Because a lot of it, it's mental, it's psyching yourself up for [inaudible 00:18:07], 78 foot wave. It's not just about experience. It's about where is your mind at, where is your serenity? How do you stay calm [inaudible 00:18:19] in the way.So we talked about that, but we never wrote the book. But I wrote the piece, it was in the Smithsonian, about maybe two years ago. It was a cover story. I love the guy. I think he's a great guy. And his brother [Liam 00:18:32], is also a good surfer. He's a much tougher character. The other thing about surfers is, they come from nowhere. They're just from nowhere, they're not necessarily educated or anything like that. They start out skateboarding, and then they leave skateboarding, and they start surfing. And they just do it with a passion. So, that's kind of admirable. I understand people who do things with that amount of passion.Guy Kawasaki:Thank God that I took up surfing at 60, because if I had taken up surfing when I was a kid in Hawaii, there is no way that I would have accomplished what I accomplished in my career. I am truly a Dick. I'm going to go surfing right after this recording.Paul Theroux:Will you wear a wetsuit?Guy Kawasaki:Oh, yeah. It's 50 degrees in the water. Yeah, yeah.Paul Theroux:But you've surfed in Hawaii, [inaudible 00:19:35]?Guy Kawasaki:At 60. I'd never surfed until... Literally, I had never surfed until 60. That's a little late to start. Oh, yeah.Paul Theroux:But I would have thought that, surfing without a wetsuit, and a lot of paraphernalia that it might make it easier.Guy Kawasaki:Well, but I don't live in Hawaii. You know what? Hawaii has coral, and sea urchins, that I don't have to deal with here. So, that's some positives.Paul Theroux:That's true. Yeah, yeah, yeah.Guy Kawasaki:Garrett and I were both Mercedes-Benz brand ambassadors. So we know each other that way.Paul Theroux:How were you a Mercedes brand ambassador? I know he was. But how were you?Guy Kawasaki:In what sense?Paul Theroux:How did you become a Mercedes brand ambassador?Guy Kawasaki:Well, Garrett McNamara is a world-class surfer. Roger Federer is a world-class tennis player. And somehow Mercedes believed that I was a world-class evangelist or marketer or something, social media user, and I wasn't going to disavow them of that [inaudible 00:20:37].Paul Theroux:Oh, I see. Okay.Guy Kawasaki:Yeah.Paul Theroux:That's great. Huh?Guy Kawasaki:Yeah. Yeah.I have to also compliment you that, that section about the [Punahou and Roosevelt 00:20:47] dynamics. That was just brilliant. I mean, it's so true. I went to Iolani, which would have been even worse, but oh my God, the Punahou and Roosevelt dynamics in that book is just fantastic. When I was a kid I got hijacked on a public bus twice, so, I could just relate to almost everything you were saying.Paul Theroux:Did you, really?Guy Kawasaki:Yeah, yeah.Paul Theroux:Who hijacked you?Guy Kawasaki:I don't know, two [inaudible 00:21:12], I suppose. It was a formative experience. Have you come to embrace eating spam? Has that entered into your culinary repertoire?Paul Theroux:No. I'm not spam [inaudible 00:21:26].Guy Kawasaki:So you're not local yet.Paul Theroux:No. You mentioned Zippy's, I'm down with Zippy's, I'm Zippy's all the time. But spam, is not... Here's my take on spam. Okay? I wrote about it, I told you. So in this book, The Happy Isles of Oceania, it's all about the island culture, spam, corned beef, pea soupo, as they call it in the Samoa, all that. And I reached the conclusion, maybe a flawed conclusion, that, we aren't the great spam eaters. There were islands noted for a history of cannibalism, and I started to think that spam approximates the taste of human flesh. In New Guinea, they call humans long pig, because they're eating each other. And I thought, spam just reminds me of something... It's like, there's something corpse-like about it. So, where you find spam eaters, Fiji, they used to eat, cannibals, I don't know.Guy Kawasaki:Okay. I see where you're going.Paul Theroux:Tonga, Waimea Valley.Guy Kawasaki:I'm friends with Andrew Zimmern. Bizarre Foods, Andrew Zimmern.PART 1 OF 4 ENDS [00:23:04]Guy Kawasaki:... with Andrew Zimmern, Bizarre Foods, Andrew Zimmern. He goes all over the world eating bizarre foods. And Spam is one of the only foods that Andrew Zimmern will not eat just [inaudible 00:23:11].Paul Theroux:Tell them what I said.Guy Kawasaki:Yeah, I will. I will. I absolutely will.Paul Theroux:I described that in the book. I mean, you could point them to the book. But what I'm saying is fanciful, but it might have a grain of truth.Guy Kawasaki:Last question about Hawaii. I read the article that you wrote in the Smithsonian about Hawaii being such a closed society. And I was in the reality distortion field, so can you explain that? Because when I read that, I said, "What is he talking about?" So how is Hawaii so closed?Paul Theroux:It's closed, because all island